True. 410 is fiddley at the best of times even when everything is going right. Most never pattern their gun and would die of fright if they saw and studied their 410 prints and counts especially with tube sets. That little citori patterns beautifully with those AAs. Best I have ever seen.
That was the very first I bought with my own money as a kid at 9 years old. It has taken lots of game, from rabbit, squirrel and grouse. The barrels are a little shorter at 26” then I like now but it still gets it done. I stopped counting at 50,000 rounds. That was some time ago and she still locks up tight like the day I got it
Citori/ or the world market version Miroku represents the best value for money piece you could ever have or own. They are the Toyota Corolla of the shooting world and with bit of care and regular maintenance just go forever. The metallurgy , fits and reliability equally good if not better than the up market Italian pieces.
Range/ pattern results with the 444 marlin cases in the 410. This load was using 12.5 grains of blue dot. 1/2 oz of #9 and .430 fibers wads, over powder card and overshot card cut with a 444 brass case and glued in. Loaded 2 shells and shot on station 3. Two dead birds. Sound report was much better, and pretty close felt recoil. I would guess about 1150-1200 psi. Pattern results: the factory load and two blue dot loads( blue dot as bull eye), that wasn’t on purpose. I see no noticeable different. All loads for pattern where shot out of bottom barrel at 30 yards. All loads left the barrel pretty clean, with no unburnt residue. The brass case had some burnt powder on the very top of the case in a small area. The 410 powder load made the brass almost an hour glass shape about 3/4 way up on the case. The blue dot load cases had the original shape, with no distortion. I will bump the powder charge just a little and re- pattern. I am curious how it will effect pattern. I would expect to much speed will blow the pattern.
If your still on board with the 410 then some new things have come up, that I will share. Some of them I did not expect. I started a new load with Winchester 572 powder. This powder is one up on the burn chart from blue dot, as it’s not a 410 powder, but neither is blue dot, but the pattern results speak for themselves. This is the 3rd firing in the starline brass. I have keep measurements of the brass in several locations. I laid the case next to a tape and marked at the same length. The length of the measurements, not so important now, as I wanted to get an idea of how and where the brass expanded. So back to the 3rd load. This time when I dropped the case into the bottom barrel, it was tight and citori didn’t wanna close. Top barrel just fine. There must be a difference in the chambers, but haven’t measured yet. So just looking at the numbers, this is what I have compared to a new case 1/4” up case from base. .003 1” up .011 1 3/4 up. .013 2” up from the base. .014 These measurements are the difference between a new case and the 3rd fired case( expansion) I had originally thought that the brass fired in the same chamber would make it through more reloads. Perhaps the chamber is a little tight, the powder charge was too hot, the brass make up is different or maybe the brass is getting worked differently then the other cases. So more testing is required, and I will order a full length sizing die.
Curious did it grow in length a lineal factor per firing per shell you could measure with vernier. Is it possible it’s lineal dimension is changing inconsistently which might explain why tight to shut bottom barrel or were all tight ln bottom barrel? Just thinking over lunch.
Auzzie: everything has been fired in the bottom barrel so far. The brass is .001 shorter then an unfired new case. I really didn’t measure length every time I fired it, so that may be a normal variation from case to case. I would expect some expansion, but it seems like a lot to me for a case that’s usually ran at 50,000 plus pressure. Not sure if it just normal or powder related, but I will find out. I have a Redding sizing die on the way so it should be easy to see where it’s at. I looked for a decent gauge to measure my chambers, but looks like it’s out of stock, so I’m gonna get some cheap T gauges and see if I can get a close measurement of my chamber. I know I have to use a mec super sizer on my Winchester AA’s as the brass expands and the sizing ring on my 600 won’t resize it correctly. And the same case on the second firing was just fine, the citori closed just fine.
Auzzie: Most of this is just to satisfy my curiosity and learn a little or a lot on the way. I have studied pressure curves in relation to firing a shot shell and many riffle cartridges. The problem is I know nothing about shotgun powder and pistol primers. There are many things that are different, and could be what’s happening with the brass. Shit at this point it could be normal, not much info out there on this stuff. I am considering a pressure trace II to help. I have read mixed reviews and it seems calibration is the questionable part. There are lots of different views, some like the strain gauge, some don’t because it differs from what Saami uses. I believe like anything else it’s a tool in the toolbox.
Ranger , I am an avid fan of what your doing. Just like an episode of Mythbusters every post. I like the fact all this stuff makes me think why or how. All factual content that I have never seen or encountered with no BS or ego attached. Keeping the mind active and learning is great medicine especially if is something you are interested in. It’s refreshing as we can all draw common sense conclusions and comparisons from various exposures to different things through various occupations and “seen something similar “scenarios. Great work keep posting away.
You got to have lots of tools in your bag of tricks. Played bit with strain gauges before. Trick is having the right span “increments” that are not too coarse or fine for what you are trying to measure on the scale.
Kybob: This one has been a chore, but I enjoy. I’m glad I have peaked your interest. Don’t hesitate to add to any of my threads. Answers, questions or advice always welcome. I’m pretty thick skinned, so even some criticism is ok. I try to show as much as I can. I visit a lot of forums and people always put things out there, and then you never hear from them again, or you get some info, but not enough to help you decide if you wanna load this load or not. When I started the 444 marlin brass there was little to no info of what problems or loads worked or didn’t. Some may think it crazy, not worth it or a horrible idea to load a shell that hasn’t been tested by a lab, but every one is entitled to their opinion. If you stick around you will see the loads be tested, it just takes time and I don’t wanna send a load out to be tested, when I know it’s gonna preform sub standard. I will hopefully be adding some pressure pics and chronograph results.
Got a chance to resize the 444 cases. I used a Redding FL die. The case that would not allow the citori to close got tight in the die about 1/4 down from the mouth and was tight all the way to the base. Lubed the case before hand and it took some effort to re-size. Tried it back in the bottom chamber and it fits like a new case. So next I will load with the same 572 powder and see what happens. I also hope to measure the chambers this week.
If your gonna go down this road, here are some things I’ve learned. I reloaded some re-sized cases and the .430 wads are much tighter. So there is a slight difference in the new 444 case from starline and what they re-size to with the Redding die. A new case, gets pretty tight when re-sizing about the last 1/4”. The blue dot load requires 1 fiber wad. The 572 load required 1 and 3/4 of another to bring the height up to where it needs to be. The thing with fiber wads is they can be added in thickness as needed. I have also added a hard card under the shot to build stack height.
Pattern time again. I patterned 2 different loads with 572. Load #2 looks to be a little tighter slightly, with a little less flyers. It had 10.5 grains of 572, .430 over powder card, 1- .430 1/2” fiber wad, 1- .430 cut in half, 1/2oz #9, and a overshot card glued in. Load#1 10.5 grains of 572, over powder card. 430, 1-.430 fiber wad, 1- over powder card for shot to rest on, 1/2oz #9 and over shot card glued in. I think both patterns are acceptable and a broken clay if I do my part. The only thing I don’t know yet is fps. If it ever stops raining and I have an afternoon I may be able to get that, but think it’s close to 1200 fps. The barrel is pretty clean after 2 shots and the perceived recoil felt about factory AA. Both of these were at 30 yards. The citori bottom barrel. The cases ejected fine and slide right back in for the second firing.
The 444 marlin brass has been a challenge to say the least. I am having issues getting enough speed, I shoot a lot of skeet with 410 so I have tried to maintain my lead as a judge of where these are in fps. I finally shot with someone competent enough to tell me I’m always behind the clay, which is where I thought I was but always good to have two set of eyes. I am assuming that some of the speed is being lost by the lead shot scrubbing inside the barrel. If anyone has experience with this then I’m open for your knowledge. Anyway I have abandoned the fiber wad load with 572. So as I’m hard headed and never take I can’t for an answer I come up with the next try. I have shot 2 off these loaded this way and the result was broken clays, observer stated he couldn’t tell the difference in factory loads. Ok well that and a dollar will get you a cup of joe. I have made up 4 more loads with the new process. I will pattern 2 and shoot 2 this weekend on the skeet field. Once I see the pattern I will post the load incase someone is going down this rabbit hole
On the prior loads I was having trouble seating the over powder card and fiber wads. So I made a tool to solve that problem. I ordered an 11mm brass rod on Amazon. I took the metal drop tube from one of my mec loaders and cut the end off just enough so the brass rod would fit tight. I then filled it with epoxy and let it dry. This is how it looks and solved the problem and I can still see how much pressure I’m applying to the wads
If you suspect low pressure , would using a rifle primer help? Just thinking out loud. Watching Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kybob: maybe, not really sure as there is no load data for this stuff. I’m out of riffle primers, so I can’t try one. I’ve been looking for some at my local gun store, but nothing showed up yet. I had thought I would try some cci pistol primers, but none of those either. It’s probably a bad time to be playing around, but….. I think the new process is gonna work, I should know more this weekend. I finally found someone to test them, I just need to get to that point. It’s 5 bucks a shot, so don’t wanna waste time and money if it don’t pass my test. Maybe my friend google will have the answer as far as pistol vs riffle primers. I need to get a weekend free that the rain it’s shutting me down and maybe I can chronograph them. If it all fails I have some RMC 410 brass on order. It will be several more months till the tool up for 410. I did get word last week that they are starting the 16 gauge so maybe I will see them soon.
Yes, agree on the chrono. That’ll get you in the ball park as far as pressure goes. If they’re super slow, then you’ll have plenty of ceiling. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
