I've owned several A5's over the years, but I've never had one that caused my heart to race... even with the obvious stock issue. Serial number is in the 5200 range. While it may be a long search, I have to locate a butt stock. Any help would be appreciated. I'm curious if the previous owner didn't cut the butt and added the extension... is there a standard length known for the butt stock? I'm sure the butt stock will cost more than what I paid for it. It was accompanied by an LC Smith grade 2, 32" field gun and a stunning Wm. Lawrence 24ga. single shot from the 1860's.... obviously, they all followed me home.
Beautiful gun, too bad about the crushed trigger guard. I’m guessing that could be fixed. Yours is the only example of the first 10,000 I’ve seen that didn’t have a straight stock. It’s probably original to the gun unless the top tang was modified and the trigger plate changed out. If it’s original, I’d try to save it. All the stock dimensions are listed in this book:
I bought a copy of the earlier edition at the Portland antique gun show last weekend and need to go thru it. Here's a pic of the bottom tang... I need to find the right screws too.
Congratulations, that is very nice early engraved auto 5 that I would love to have in my collection. I think the trigger plate was bent to accommodate the pistol grip. It would be easy to bring it to the original configuration.
I ordered a couple screws from Art's gunshop. This morning after really inspecting the A5 again, got to wonder if replacing all the screws wouldn't be better?... Then another thought of replacing the screws, slide release & trigger with Nitre blued or gold washed replacements. After checking the stock length, it wasn't cut, only the extension piece was added. The lock screw hole on the bottom of the pistol grip tang doesn't seem to be located close enough to "lock" the mount screw (?) I've also wondered what the potential cost would be to have a proper restoration done (if that is advisable)? I find myself going down a slippery slope... basically, trying to figure out if I should just leave it "as is" or ???? I would appreciate other people's opinions & thoughts. thanks.
Guns of that vintage don’t have lock screws. I didn’t notice it before, but your lower tang has an extra stock screw. Here’s what it should look like: My guess is that the gun originally had a straight stock. That put the threads on the top tang at the wrong position and angle for a pistol grip stock, so the extra screw was necessary. Note the different styles of screws.
Well that does clear things up a bit... knowing the work that needs to be done is beyond my abilities, I've sent a message to Art's to see if they have a "high ballpark" number for a restoration. Will be interesting to see what the cost might be.... Cheers.
Art’s is definitely the place to send your gun to have it fixed. As for restoration, I don’t think it needs it. The bluing is well preserved, why screw it up with a non-original hot dip blue? Also, a re-blue will entail buffing a lot of that original, fine engraving away. Why pay someone to recreate what’s already there?
btolson, Great way to make an entrance! For those of us that have been looking for a while it is a breath of fresh air to see some of these Early Engraved guns to have survived in generally sound condition for more than roughly a 120 years. Although most of us here long to see Original condition preserved, as Rudolph expressed earlier, it is obvious that some individuals will pay what most of us would consider extreme money for examples that have been cosmetically enhanced to look like they haven't been used. Typically what I have found is that in order to return a firearm to what it was like when it left the factory is impossibly expensive and typically non-recoverable in the marketplace. Your untouched gun is a rarity and many appreciate that in their quest to own one of these rare beauties. The stock is very interesting as the earliest illustrations show the 3 point checkering in the wrist as yours has. You don't see it very often as it was moved away from very quickly in my observations. If you do get industrious and remove the stock it would be interesting to see the serial number that is stamped on it in the tang grooves if there is one. Also the location of the boss that the stock bolt attaches will give you some clues to how they achieved the fit. I drilled and tapped a second hole to convert a Remington to a straight grip from a semi-pistol but not sure I could have taken it the other way. It would be interesting to see at any rate. From what I see of the forearm it does appear to be of Remington descent. Back to your original question the Remington early stocks were standard 14 and 3/8" LOP. I'm away from my reference materials so maybe Rudolph can double check the 1903 Catalogue to see if it states in it. Good luck with whatever you choose and like I'm sure most of the folks here, Biz especially, if you do decide you'd rather not undertake any alterations and wish to part with it please let someone know and maybe they can help you with moving it to someone else's collection. Thanks again for sharing! Will
BTW I also have a very early trigger group that I believe is for a pistol grip gun. I'll try to locate it next time I'm in and post a few photos for you. It may be a cheaper option than filling the extra hole and reshaping the guard. I'll not likely ever need it and be glad for you to have it if it helps you get it where you feel better about it. Will
Will, I think it’s the top tang that’s the problem here and the extra hole in the trigger plate was drilled to line up with it. If he gets yours he’ll be in the same boat. If it were my gun, I’d look into having a straight stock fitted. Obviously it’d need a different trigger plate. Unfortunately, I don’t have any of the old catalogs. I’ve got the S/V book, as does the OP.
From what I've read from the S/V book, my shotgun is a grade 3. However, it does have quite a bit more coverage than the grade 3's shown in the book... I don't know how the Blue Book pricing plays in this arena, but at the 60% bottom rating it says $1325. plus 100% for early production... that comes to $2,650. Which I now think is low after I saw the completed sales price of Art's most recent restoration (the "saving your pennies post"). I imagine Art's would charge $3,000 to $4,000. to do a "full restoration" (my estimate from dealing with Doug Turnbull). I'm also of "leave it alone" mindset... sell it and buy more Winchester 22's (my personal addiction)... I appreciate the input from collectors and would prefer to make it available here rather than an online auction or Gun's Intnl. So, I will entertain offers from those who have posted in this link. I am not an FFL and reside in the left wing looney bin called Washington state. I know the shotgun has issues... but as I began this thread, it did make my heart race... knowing it was a good piece. Please PM if you're serious... I have a number in mind, I won't make it a bidding war between posters. If I don't hear back by Sunday (I'm leaving for a gunshow tomorrow morning) I will pursue other avenues. I'll continue to hang around the forum and lurk... I'm still learning and always appreciate honest input & comments. And the S/V book is a wonderful addition to my gun library. Cheers.
btolson, Could you verify that the barrel matches SN and if possible, could we see a picture of the forearm/magazine cap as well as the sight at the end of the barrel and confirm it is a full 28" from chamber opening to the end of barrel. Thanks, Will Rudolph I eluded to that in my post. The straight grip Remington tang hit the boss block on the pistol grip receiver where I was able to put a completely separate blind threaded hole where I can revert it back to it's original configuration if I choose. Pretty neat actually. Would be neat to see how this one is done.
Ok since you didn't follow the rules for selling or contact me prior to offering this to members here are my thoughts. I noticed you edited your first post removing the price you paid. Now you want to receive offers via PM, which is ok, but if I find out that you are just holding out for a higher bid between two members using their prior bids against the other member your membership here will be terminated. If you have a number that you will sell for then list that. I will not have a bidding war between members.
Thats your choice or you can post a price that you want and let members decide if they want to pay that or not. That's fair to everyone.
Rudolph may know better than I but my experience with the earliest guns, <10,000, is that they had the original friction brake with alternating cuts and one flat edge that seated against the square cross section magazine recoil spring and the other edge of the friction brake tapered and seated in the barrel ring. The steel Friction Ring pictured between the spring and brake did not come on the scene until later when they moved away from the alternating brake cuts, probably due to breakage and tapered both the leading edge into the barrel ring and the rearward edge into the Friction Ring. Other than that things look to be in order the sight ramp is something that you see on most barrels including this one, however the earliest illustrations show only a bead, no ramp, like the 1903 catalog that is shown in V&S where I referred folks to in my earlier post. I just don't have it handy. Good luck to all and sorry this drifted into Foul Territory, certainly was not my intent. Will
I’ve seen pictures, but have never come across one. They’ve all probably broken long ago. As for knowing better than you, you were one of the Auto-5 experts I learned from when I was brand new to these guns.
