1911-380 Problem! Please help thanks!

Discussion in 'Browning 1911 - 380 Handgun' started by JasonBrowning, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. Alpha1

    Alpha1 .410

    I do not use the slide lock any more to a load round anymore and I am not sure why a round does not always chamber. With the slide closed and a fresh mag installed pulling the slide and letting it go forward has always loaded a round since I did the ejector mod. The slide can do back just a bit beyond the lock position so there is a very slight amount of more energy available. Hand racking seems to be much smother that releasing the side lock and that might be where the difference is. The trouble is this seems more subjective than objective but it always works. I'll do a bit more looking.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 4, 2022
  2. wkrp4me

    wkrp4me Guest

    IMG_0956.JPG IMG_0972.JPG I finally got to the range today….somehow my Tuesday ended up to be on Friday. I was able to shoot 50 rounds of American Eagle and 38 rounds of MagTech FMJ. I also had 2 mag’s of Norma FMJ but never fired them. I had 3 fail to feed jams (Bullet hung before getting into the chamber) on the brand “MT”, and 2 fail to feed stove pipes on brand “AE”. I had 2 mags of brand “N” FMJ loaded but was 6 for 6 fail to feed ( first cartridge hung on feed ramp) , so I gave up on that brand. I had measured samples for “Over All Length” for all the 380 ammo I have, and picked these 3 loads because they were greatest OAL. I have all that OAL length data if anyone wants to see it. I tried making photos of the jams and every photo is to dark to see the features that are crucial to the suggestion Alpha1 has been gracious enough to share. I will go back Monday and have my wife hold adequate lighting to allow me make a useable photo. Photos of the 2 types of fail to feed I dealt with today are attached. No ejection issues, and other wise excellent performance from the gun.
    This was not a great day but my shot count is now at about 240. I’m still optimistic that the gun can eventually be reliable, but I sure had much higher expectations out of a gun that Browning would put it’s name on. I’ll continue to update until I the gun is reliable … or I sell it.
    Hopefully others will find some value in all this. As always, and comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2022
  3. wkrp4me

    wkrp4me Guest

    IMG_0970.JPG This was best photo I could get today with respect to the suggestion Alpha1 was kind enough to pass along. I tried to send it directly to him but never could figure that trick out.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2022
  4. Alpha1

    Alpha1 .410

    Thanks for the photos. May I suggest the following action. Lets start with the extractor. Remove the slide. Place a live round into the chamber with the extractor gripping the cartridge. Gently shake the slide. If the round does not easy fall out the extractor is too tight. There are several U tube sights showing how to adjust. Step 2, make sure the ejector is not too long. With a round in the chamber the ejector should only be slightly longer than the cartridge ejector groove. Now for step 3, and I probably will get some heat one this, but it works. The follower on the mags is molded probably from some glass filled resin. (My Sig P238 uses all stainless steel mag and follower.) I am now convinced this is as major issue with these guns. I disassembled three of the 4 of my mags. Cleaned and lubed with Clenzoil. Back to the range and fired until I was getting tired. No failures. When I loaded the one mag that I had not treated I had FTF. Once I had treated the mags I could feel the difference in resistance pushing down the follower. After I spray the mag spring and follower, I wipe it down with cotton patches. Every time I have made a change to my 380, I go to the range and validate that particular change. People will say only lube in the mag will attract dust. You could say he same for gun lube. The ranges I use have been free of sand storms so far. Now for the validation step. I you have done all of the above, load each mag and with the slide locked back, insert the mag. The cartridge nose should be pointing up and just entering the ramp. If the round is not in that position it will FTF. As previously mentioned I do not release the lock slide to chamber a round. I start with the slide all the way forward, insert a mag. and then chamber the round by going back into full battery position and then releasing the slide. My 380 is now 100% operational, which means to me, it has to work 100% of the time. My life may depend upon it. 100% nothing less. Just a closing note: I sent my 380 back to the factory still not even close to 100%. This is really a good gun but requires some changes to make it perfect. I shot over 50 rounds on Tuesday at 25 feet, with 90% of the rounds hitting within a 5.5 inch circle. So... don't be discouraged. If I can be of further help... just ask.. Best regards, Alpha1
  5. wkrp4me

    wkrp4me Guest

    Thanks
    1. Using Black Hills 100g FMJ RN, cartridge will fall out when shaken slightly. No photo.
    2. Ejector is slightly longer than ejector grove but is not depressing the cartridge (holding nose down) cartidge in nose up and well into the feed ramp. Photo 1 and 2. IMG_0975.JPG IMG_0977.JPG
    3. Going to pick up Clenzoil this afternoon - not looking forward to the magazine work. Hopefully finish a couple of mags tonight and have range report tomorrow.

    On the subject of magazines, I’m looking at some 9mm mags for other guns we have. I realize that 380 is not 9 mm and that there are many things about a guns design that make this not an apple to orange comparison, but they do have same cartridge dia.
    A: Smith-Wesson 9mm Shield EZ (stainless 8 round single stack) sides are nicely curved inward at the rear half and the opening is about 0.328 (photo 3) IMG_0980.jpg
    B: Springfield Hellcat Pro (stainless 15 round double stack) sides are nicely curved inward at the rear half and the opening is about 0.332
    (photo 4) IMG_0983.jpg
    C: Ruger PC9 Carbine (painted steel 17 round double stack) sides are nicely curved inward on the rear half and the opening is about 0.335
    (photo 5) IMG_0991.JPG
    D: Browning factory 380 (painted steel 8 round single stack) very slight inward curve on the rear half, straight to maybe outward flair on the front, and rear opening checks 0.321 (photo 6) IMG_0985.jpg

    Attached Files:

  6. Alpha1

    Alpha1 .410

    I did some more investigation and am now convinced that the design of the mag has a lot to do with FTF. It is the only design that I have ever seen that uses the top coil of the mag spring to serve as the lock and release mechanism. That coil puts a huge amount of drag on the inside of the mag. That drag will, if not properly treated will cause the follower not to gain the proper attitude causing the cartridge to not have as nose up attitude. You will be amazed at the difference in depressing the follower before and after the lube. I lube the inside of the mag and then wipe it clean, same for the follower. In the next few weeks I will be testing the mag lubes such as PTFE. Frankly, the design of the mag is simply horrible and unless treated is a major contributor to FTF. I don't like resin followers, prefer stainless steel. Sorry I did not figure the mag issue sooner, but I woke up in the middle of the night a few nights ago with an ah ha moment. My 380, after all the changes, never misses as beat. Extremely accurate. Keep me posted.
  7. wkrp4me

    wkrp4me Guest

    In my previous post, I should have made 2 additional points:
    1. I’m whining a lot about the feed issues on my gun, and they do HAVE to be corrected, but otherwise, this is a great gun. Very accurate, easy to carry, and fun to shoot!
    2. I was looking at the 9 mm mags just because, between those 3 mags, we have better than 3000 rounds fired in past 2 years with ZERO malfunctions of any kind. Just kinda makes you wonder about the boys and girls at the Browning ranch. Or, maybe we just used up all our good luck? Or maybe…..
  8. Alpha1

    Alpha1 .410

    The guy that designed these mags should have done something else for a living. I have owned many many semi auto over the past 30 to 40 years and not one every had a mag issue, and not one ever used the spring as part of the lock and release mag system. The good news there is a "fix."
  9. wkrp4me

    wkrp4me Guest

    Cleaned up 3 mags per Alapha1 suggestion yesterday. Have 8 mags total, and I measured the rear mag openings and selected 3 that were 0.321/0.322 just to make sure that variable was reduced. Between my Pro and my wife’s Compact, we fired 115 rounds and all but 8 were from the 3 treated magazines. I had one stovepipe feed in a mag loaded with 4 Fed America Eagle and 4 MagTech. The 4 AE were loaded on top of the MagTech and the last AE popped up rather than going into the chamber. See photo. I inserted the AE back in the stack, racked the slide, and it fed correctly as did the following 4 MagTach. I will add that every “pop up” like like this, so far, has been with Fed AE Cartridge IMG_0994.JPG
    My wife used the same 3 magazines, and had a fail to feed jam when she says she did not feel like she got the slide all the way back before releasing, so very likely not a gun related issue. She dropped the magazine and started over and everything went fine.

    The mix of cartridges today was 50 Fed AE, 12 MagTech, 20 Black Hills , 8 Norma, and 25 Hornady CD. All except Hornady were FMJ RN. I still had the 2 mags of Norma left from previous session where neither would load, so these 2 mags have not been given the “Alpha1” treatment, but at end of session I tried one mag and all 8 rounds loaded and fired. The other mag still would not feed any cartridge into the chamber.

    Overall , the day was not perfect with respect to Browning 380’s but the results from the 3 “Alpha1” treated Mags represents a quantum leap forward and we are greatly appreciative of his help. Enthusiasm is at a much high level now. Round count on her gun is about 400 and my gun about 300.

    (For what it’s worth, wife and I shot 50 rounds each from our 9 mm pistols at 25’a before we started with the Brownings. Once again, she outshot me. It’s almost as humiliating as when she beats me playing golf!)
  10. Alpha1

    Alpha1 .410


    When you have a chance remove the slide, using a penlight with the light shining up into the mag well you might be surprised to see score marks on the side where the spring on the mag is protruding. That sort of drag may influence FTF, not sure at this point. However I am looking into some extreme high pressure lubes to minimize this effect. I know this much so far, an untreated follower will do nothing but cause problems. I will also try different lubes for the follower. I won't be able to fire my 380 for about 3 weeks due to travel but that won't stop me from working on the mag and the scoring issue. Be sure to check your extractor for proper tension. There are a couple of u-tube videos showing how to do this without any special tools. I'll keep you posted on any progress I make.
  11. wkrp4me

    wkrp4me Guest

  12. Alpha1

    Alpha1 .410

    Be sure to check the extractor first. Good video: RECOILtv: Extractor tension on a 1911 pistol (full episode) by Jason Burton. As far as I am concerned the 1911-380 mag design leaves a lot to be desired. Having the spring as serve as part of the lock and release of the mag is ridiculous. Contrary to other beliefs, disassemble the mag, clean and lube the follower with Clenzoil wiping oil off with clean cloth. Some lube will remain. Start with the extraction tension fist. This is very important. Then make sure the length of the extractor only exceeds the cartridge extractor groove by a couple of thousands. I think one of the major issues with this gun is the drag of the follower inside the mag. I had to make lot of adjustments on my 380 but now it shoots 100%
  13. Alpha1

    Alpha1 .410

    I am working on another fix to the mag but it will be several weeks before I do a trial. I do not like the exposed spring loop that serves as the mag lock and release. It also causes huge drag as the follower goes up the mag. So I made "adjustments" to the amount of spring exposure and now the drag is essentially gone BUT the mag lock and releases with no issue. More when I get back from the range.
  14. Alpha1

    Alpha1 .410


    Ii think everyone will find this most interesting and important. As you all know I am not very fond of the mag design so I decided to spend more time looking into the design.
    Forget what I said about the exposed spring loop projecting out of the follower. It has nothing to do with the mag release. My bad on that. The follower is a molded part, thin wall so the inside of the follower is not a flat surface but it follows the slope of the exterior of the follower. The purpose of the exposed spring is to keep the top of the spring "level" with the follower. If the inside of the follower was flat the spring would rest on that and provide a uniform force upwards. The current design pushes the follower to the opposite side of the mag housing, creates a huge amount of drag and tends to score the inside of the mag well. The mag lock and release is a slot located about 1/3 of the way down from the top. The exposed spring loop has nothing to do with it. The current design does not even apply even pressure to the follower. I and now convince this is the major issues with the 380. I modified one of my mags by bending the exposed spring coil so it was flush with the housing. Photo at end of this. My qualification standard is 75 rounds rapid fire, no FTF or any other issues. Went to the range to day with the modified mag and did the 75 no issues. I am currently modifying all my mags by pouring in an epoxy mix in the inside of the follower. I make sure the follower is level and pour enough epoxy to make the inside level. I mount the follower in my gun vice, use a bubble level to set the follower at a level position. The I will cut the "exposed" part of the spring and now the spring and the follower will be in full contact with no side thrust. I still feel it is a good idea to keep the mag clean and the follower lightly lubed. In the photo note the difference in the amount of spring exposure between the two mags. Oh, tape the spring opening before pouring the epoxy. So there is a fix to a horrible design. IMG_0716.jpeg
    wkrp4me likes this.
  15. wkrp4me

    wkrp4me Guest

    Interesting. I’m working on my remaining 5 mags to match the 3 I used at last session. Probably will not be back at the range until next Monday. Please keep us posted about the results from the epoxy modification when you get back to the range.
  16. wkrp4me

    wkrp4me Guest

    I finished giving my other mags the “Alpha1” clenzoil treatment. I picked out 2 mags from the previous (Sept 12) update, and picked 1 that I had just cleaned but the action still feels rough and the rear opening is 0.327 - wider than the other 2. I presumed thatI was likely to be unhappy with this mag and thats how it went.
    I fired six types of ammo: 50 Fed AE FMJ RN , 15 Black Hills JHP, 20 Double Tap SC-HP, 50 Freedom FMJ RNFP, 15 Winchester FMJ RNFP, and 20 Sig FMJ RNFP - Total 170 rounds. I cleaned to feed ramp with a Clenzoil swab after each50 rounds.
    Tried mags loaded with 1, 5, and 8 for most ammo.
    Net result :
    AE had one stove pipe fail to feed from Mag 2 (round 7 of 8), no other issues in any mag. ThE failure was just prior to a 50 round ramp clean.
    DT had no issues.
    Freedom had no issues.
    Black Hills JHP hung on feed lip once on all 3 mags - stopped trying after 15 rounds
    Winchester hung on feed lip of mag 1 and 3- stopped trying after 15 rounds
    Sig hung on feed lip on all 3 mags - stopped trying after 20 rounds
    This brings my round count up to 470. With exception of these ridiculous feed issues, this gun does everything else extremely well.
    I’m following Alpha1’s work on the epoxy fill of the mag follower…hopeful.
    As of now, I have at least 3 mags that seems to do well with Fed AE FMJ RN, Black Hills FMJ RN, Freedom FMJ RNFP, Hornady CD JHP, and Double Tap SC-HP. Not reliable enough to bet my life on yet, but it’s so much more fun to shoot than the guns we already have for that purpose. I’m still optimistic. I can live happily ever after without Winchester or Sig 380 ammo in my safe. Plenty of applications for those brands in our other guns.
  17. Alpha1

    Alpha1 .410


    I will go back up to the range on Monday as I will have all four mags modified. Of the two that are modified the rounds line up perfectly with the ramp. The proof will be next week, but I will say this, the mags now feel like other 1911's that do not have he spring coil hanging out there. Depressing the follower is just supper smooth.
  18. wkrp4me

    wkrp4me Guest

    Does this effect the operation of the slide lock?
  19. Alpha1

    Alpha1 .410

    None what so ever. The spring loop was designed to keep the follower level and I believe it is the major cause to 1911-380 issues. On Monday I will be back at the range with 4 mags all modified to my changes. I'll be sure to let you know the outcome.
  20. wkrp4me

    wkrp4me Guest

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