Little Bit-Brass

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Ranger6, Jul 1, 2021.

  1. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    I was looking through some notes from my grand fathers load book and stumbled on this, there was mention of 410 brass shells, made from 444 marlin cases. Not much details, but enough to spark an interest in my mind. Looked up the saami spec for the case and started measuring chambers. Didn’t have any cases for a 444 marlin so wasn’t sure if they would have to be modified or not. Quick google search showed that the thickness of the rim, may be a problem. Ordered some cases and much to my surprise the citori closes just fine. So now to come up with a load! Should it be with fiber wads or plastic wads?

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  2. win7stw

    win7stw .30-06

    Better go fiber
  3. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Well great minds think a like. I ordered wads today. Well some of them anyway. Had a hard time finding what I wanted. We will see when they get here this next week. If they are not right I got a back up plan.
  4. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Ranger,
    Workmate that does the metalic slugs has dabbled in this. Does his with homemade felts I believe. Loaded in 10 shot for blasting snakes when required.
  5. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    My goal with this one is a round of skeet, and to have a decent pattern. If you get the general opinion of most shooters that shoot 410 bore, they will tell you that patterning the 410 is a huge disappointment and just to shoot a round of clays. I have never needed to pattern the 410, but I’m up for a challenge.
  6. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Fiber wads, over powder cards and overshot cards arrived today from track of the wolf. I measured the inside of the 444 case and came up with .412. The fiber wads are in different sizes .412,.415, .430, and 410 bore. Depending on where you get them the size may be different. Most places are out of stock on a lot of the fiber wad stuff, but track of the wolf usually has a good supply. I like the BP fiber wads best, but they don’t have all the sizes and are out of most. There is a chart on track of the wolf that list the size of wad to use in brass. It states in the mag tech 410 brass to use .430 wads. Since I’m using 444 marlin cases they will be to big. Any way got some wads waxed and on the cookie sheet to dry. I have found that if you let the wads age for several weeks you get better results. I also found that after rolling them in the secret sauce if you give them about 5 min dry time and then roll them in your fingers it forces the tallow into the wad and smooth’s out the tallow and makes it even, and you will have no excess wax.

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  7. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Well I finally got a chance to load a 410 brass shell tonight. After studying load data, burn rate charts and the such for about 2 weeks I picked a powder. I was going to go with herco, but decided on alliant 410, as I have a good supply. I’m happy to report that the fiber wads, and over powder card .412 diameter fits like a charm. The overshot card same diameter is just a tad to small, so I have ordered .430 diameter. I will hopefully shoot this tomorrow and we will go from there with the exact load after I know it works.

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  8. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Got to put lead down range today, at least on paper. The skeet field was closed due to rain, but the pattering lane was open. I guess times have changed. The range guy ask me if I was sure I wanted to shoot in the rain. I was like hell yea it’s just rain. He looked at me all crazy and said what about your gun? Ok what about it? He said well it’s gonna get wet. Anyway to the good stuff. I loaded the 444 marlin brass with 11.5 grains of alliant 410, rem 2 1/2 primer, over powder card, waxed 1/2 fiber wad. 1/2oz of #8 and glued in over shot card. The first picture is factory Winchester 410 #9. 1200 fps out of skeet barrel citori. I grabbed the wrong box of factory shells, should have been #8 but it will work for now. So by a little surprise the brass shell is tighter with fiber wads, then the factory shell. The brass had a good sounding report and much lighter felt recoil. The barrel seemed a little dirty with residue, much like the reloads with 296 powder. It’s no secret that 410 bore is a lot whimper and getting a good burn is a hard thing to achieve. I clean my barrels after every use so not a big deal to me.
    I have loaded 2 more with 12 grains of 410 and will hopefully shoot some skeet tomorrow to try and judge the velocity and performance of the .5 grain bump. The weather down here is never gonna let me get to the chronograph, so hopefully I can get an idea from shooting crossing targets.

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  9. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Couldn’t have been too wet pattern sheets not actually soggy. Like the bit about Range Manager & skeet layout closed for rain and getting gun wet pretty lame ! Really I would have had him out Ref or pulling targets in a downpour.

    Like pattern the citori is throwing with factory Win 9”s guessing AA. That’s pretty darn good n even . What’s it choked and what distance is the lane. I like to pattern 18metres & 22 metres for skeet. 18 is ideal break distance and 22 is longest shot on second doubles calculated longest shot on field station 3. stats also say most missed targets are H5 &L3
    Reckon that brass job with 9” be every bit as good.
  10. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    yea its was no way near that bad, been out in way worse stuff. Yes those are AA's. The citori is choked skeet and skeet, that was at 30 yards. The citori was made in the 80's so it does not have screw in chokes. It has been a great 410. Never had one lick of trouble out of it.
  11. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Went to the skeet field today for a little 410 action. Needed to shoot the 444 brass anyway. I decided to shoot the brass on station 3 to try and get an idea of the velocity. I kept the same lead as I would with 1200 fps shells and it was a miss. Way behind on both brass shells. So when I ejected the brass, both had burnt powder on the case mouth, and excessive unburnt powder left in the barrel. The .5 grain bump of 410 powder made no difference in felt recoil( not that I would notice), but it’s considerably less recoil then the factory 410 load. On the field the sound report sounded very weak. So with all the results from today’s run, the 410 powder is a thing of the past that will be loaded in plastic hulls.
    So a couple of changes going into the next load. The larger overshot cards haven’t showed up yet, so decided to cut some with one of the 444 cases. Easy enough to do, but takes additional time. Simple process. Take BP 12 gauge overshot card and put it on a 2x4 in a vise. Smack it with a hammer and you got an overshot card. Should have done this in the beginning, they fit much better. The next powder of choice will be blue dot. If this one doesn’t work, then I will go with the first choice of herco.

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    Last edited: Jul 13, 2021
  12. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    So a little bit of info that may be useful to someone going down this path. The brass that’s black on the case mouth is most likely due to lack of pressure. These claims are backed up by the weak sounding report, lack of felt recoil and in burnt powder in the barrel. Less pressure equals less velocity, and would be inline with the miss being way behind when the same lead was maintained.
    I have been looking for a way to prime these brass cases and most of the priming tools are cheap and don’t really work all that well. So the best priming station was right in front of me the whole time. So the pictures should give clue to what is being used. Works better then any priming tool to date.

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  13. win7stw

    win7stw .30-06

    Have you tried an rcbs hand held primer? I love mine. Also have the Sinclair hand held tool but that’s too slow for me but it’s a quality tool
  14. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    My buddy has one and I have used it. I was hoping not to buy anymore tools. The more I look the more I buy. Does it ever end?
  15. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Ranger, This could be helpful or not asked guy at work today what powder he uses in his metallic 410’s for snake loads no 10s He ended up using ADI AR 2205 which is primarily a rifle powder but they do list a one off only 410 load but think it is getting up there pressure wise. Might for curiosity be worth a visit to ADI site and see if there is something similar stats n properties your backyard. You will have heaps of options and choices at fingertips.
    I loaded 410 for my kid with the 2205 when he was little and learning as it was all we had available. It was ok but nothing to rave about yet he tells me it behaves much better in a metallic situation. Interesting.
  16. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Auzzie: thanks sir, I will check it out. I saved that web site on my computer at work.
  17. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    So thinking about this alliant 410 powder load. I got a couple things I don’t understand. The internal volume of the 444 case is slightly less then a Winchester AA 410 hull. The 12 grains of 410 powder should have performed better.
    why was the pattern tighter with fiber loads? I would expect a more open pattern, and have seen it with other fiber wad loads.
    I have considered the wads not sealing well enough, shot set back, the shot scrubbing on the barrel and deforming from no protection. The other thing is the large pistol primer ignition vs the 209 primer. Even know I use the same primer in the 12 gauge brass and have different results. Anyone have a high speed camera?
  18. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Thinking over lunch. Odd report sound =incomplete combustion = reduced muzzle velocity = the tighter pattern on the paper. Also in past tinkering with 410 they can be fussy on primer ignition powder combo to get that good burn.
  19. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Auzzie: I agree with you on that, however, from past experience and low pressure I should have seen more flyers. There were a few that I noticed, but nothing crazy. perhaps a cci primer would help, not sure at this point, but I keep notes so I may re visit it. Don't see much point in going over 13 grains with 410 powder. That's another .5 grain bump. Then again .5 in a riffle case can make a huge difference, not always good. For sure the 410 bore is the weird one of the bunch. I do know that 410 powder hasn't been released from Alliant for pistol loads, because of the unstable pressure increase in loads for pistol, so it could all be primer related.

    My grand dad always told me that if it was easy, then everyone would be doing it, but if its worth doing then its worth doing your best
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
  20. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    checked this morning and looks like H110, which I also have

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