Euro Trash II

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Ranger6, May 24, 2021.

  1. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    The part II section will cover Rio hulls, 2 3/4 once fired. I also added a monarch hull to show how the load looks along side the Rio’s. The load data came from the Rio manual, and is 20 grains of clays, 7/8 oz #8 and the PT1205 wad. It calls for the Rio primer to be at 7400 psi and 1200 fps. I used a Winchester 209, after the primer pocket was conditioned. The Winchester 209 can be inserted with your thumb in the Rio hull before conditioning.
    Hopefully you can see in the clear hull that the powder is above the plastic basewad,(more on this later), the wad is sitting square on the powder.
    The PT1205 wad is from BP, and if your familiar with RST this is the exact wad they use in their shells.
    The crimps turned out decent before the final gaep process, but looks like factory ammo after. Gotta love the gaep finish crimper. Note: the three different hulls were are pre crimped and crimped on a mec 600 mark v with no adjustments made between hulls.
    I had in mind to pattern this load, but some how it got left on the bench..... sorry
    I also shot all these loads in both euro trash sections on the skeet field. This load as you recall called for a rio primer, but I sub'ed in a winchester to lower the pressure. It had a very off sounding report and failed to break the clay. This same load was refired with a rio primer out of auto5 and it sounded normal and clay busted.

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    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  2. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Next would be the same hulls with 1oz #8. If you remember from earlier post the 7/8 oz loads with the PT1205 were are crimped without any adjustments to the crimp stations. No such luck, as expected with 1oz load. So these loads call for 20 grains of clays, PT1205 wad and 1oz ( 437 grains) of #8. For the case of nit picking 1oz of mag shot is 437.9 grains. One bb over what is listed in the Rio manual. This load shows 8500 psi and 1240 fps( which I hope will cycle the auto5). As always I like to show the shot level inside the hull, if you are use to seeing the correct shot level(stack height) you will know what looks correct and what don’t.
    You can’t see it in the pictures, but the level of shot is to high in the blue Rio. You can see after the pre crimp that the shot is almost spilling out. The next picture is what happens without proper adjustments

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    Last edited: May 25, 2021
  3. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    The fix for the crushed hull is to adjust the final crimp station. The final crimp station was moved up and the results for the monarch and white Rio were spot on. Back to the blue Rio and once again the hull buckled at the final crimp

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  4. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    I stated before that a straight wall hull is a straight wall hull, and I stick to it just like a duck is a duck, but there are still ugly ducks.(blue Rio). So I had the CB-6100 wads on my bench, again straight wall wad. The load in the blue Rio is 20 grains of clays, Rio primer, cb6100 wad and one oz of #8. Don’t know the pressure or fps of this load off the top of my head, but it’s safe and well under 11,500 psi. After the adjustments were made for the monarch and white Rio with 1 oz I decided to just try the blue Rio. With the 6100 wad it was spot on and crimps look good. The pattern is my normal 40 yards, out of auto 5 with screw in skeet choke. It cycled just fine.
    Last pattern was 6100 in Rio hull with American select. This load wasn’t covered but looks good. It struggled to cycle, and most likely wouldn’t have if I needed a second shot

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    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  5. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    If your still reading the Rio hulls are not all the same. Yes they are all straight wall hulls but the difference is in the base wad. There are several different base wad heights, depending on where they were made or what ever else Rio wanted to change. There are some issues with certain powders and grains of powder not being dense enough to raise the wad above the base wad. This will allow the wad to cock inside the hull. If you load at least 20 grains of most powder you will not have issues. Just be aware as you will not see this in the hull unless to cut inspection ports in the hulls. I have cut one the blue Rio’s to show how the wad should sit above the base wad. Should you be like me and read reloading stuff then you can find a lot of good info over on shotgun world. https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=248&t=246027

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  6. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Next will be the Rio’s with a fiocchi wad. Grafs is about 7-10 days behind in shipping, but got an email today that the wads are on the way. Hopefully will be loading some this weekend. If the rain stops I will be testing some of these shells on the pattern board.
    This pattern is with the fiocchi 1 oz wad fired out of auto 5 with 7/8 oz #8. It cycled fine.

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    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  7. win7stw

    win7stw .30-06

    As always great post buddy. You are starting to have too much time on your hands.
    Ranger6 likes this.
  8. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Thanks Justin, yea it’s been raining here for like 2 weeks, work is slow, so I’m home early. Long weekend this week so hopefully it will stop long enough to get some skeet rounds in.
  9. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Very good really caps off on some of the stuff discussed in post 1
  10. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    In closing the euro trash post I will end with the fiocchi 27 wad. This is a value wad according to BP and is a 1 oz wad. Of course it’s going in the Rio hull, as I do not like fiocchi hulls. There isn’t much load data for 1 oz wad out there, the 1 1/8 oz wad there are several loads. I did order some of the 1 1/8 wads(RS21) too so if someone want to play with them before buying, let me know and I will send you a few. Anyway my 1 oz load is with D20 powder, 21.7 grains, fiocchi 27 wad, 1 oz of #8 and a Winchester primer. Load is 1250 fps at 8300 psi. I know I normally post the shot level in the hull, got lazy. I can say the 1 oz of shot is above the wad pedals just a little. The other Rio was loaded with 7/8oz shot. The 7/8 oz sits level with the wad. I did make a change to the powder drop, due to less shot. You can see the results in the pictures.

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    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  11. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Hi Ranger. Interesting that the wad you show above is called H27 We used to get our hands on wads from B&P in Italy and the wad on left is what gets boxed and labled as H27 to us with one in middle H24 and your Guilandi on the right. I have seen the one above when been down in the paddock scrounging with my friends the toads and its obviously loaded in a factory load of some kind.

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  12. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Ranger had a play today and loaded some Bio Ammo cases for the fun of it . They have a fairly high base wad being 24 gram but seem Ok. I used some some wads that were given to me to try that come from Spain. Not impressed with the wad so much as the plastic feels too rigid for my liking however they seem to go bang reliably enough. The Bio Ammo shells seem little smaller in bore diameter which suits reloading as you can feel a good fit. I have them with be 19 grains of your Clays and 13/16 oz shot with Win 209
    There is plenty in the bins for the avid reloader / experimenter and have done a few with H27 and H24 that look OK too. May be a useful forgiving shell for a 1 load and dump scenario.

    The actual Bio Ammo factories are a different story. I have heard lots of weird sounding reports and bangs coming out of peoples guns using the stuff. Seems to be the wad in the factory doesn't suit guns with overbored barrels which is a fair percentage of O/U target guns out there now days. It may be as things change in the future we will be back to having steeper forcing cones and organic wads like felts again.

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  13. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Auzzie: I still wanna get my hands on some of that Bioammo. I will find some eventually. Any way I am familiar with the Guilandi wads. These are excellent wads in my experience and yes you are correct they have a H27 wad. I have always hated that the wad guys, reloading data guys and the people that sell the wads are not on the same sheet with the names. I looked up the fiocchi wad today and found several different references to what looks like the fiocchi wad, and both BP and graf's call their wads the fiocchi wad. BP list the fiocchi wad as the RS-21 only the
    1 1/8 oz wad, and states that its a BP exclusive that can't be bought anywhere else.They don't show or I couldn't find the 1oz wad with them. I checked precision reloading, nothing. Graf's has both fiocchi 1 oz and 1 1/8 oz wad. . They are listed as fiocchi straight wall hull. To make things more confusing I looked at some load data from different sources and in one source it is called F27. I have 1 load that calls it the H27B. This isn't the first time I've seen the same wad called different names, or what looks like the same wad. I have corrected the above post to reflect Fiocchi 27, which is the 1oz wad that I used for 7/8 oz in the rio. I purchased it from graf and sons. (RS-21 = 1 1/8oz from BP). The RS-21 from BP has a print out with several loads listed with the RS-21 wad in 1 1/8 oz and the same wad(RS-21) with 1 oz loads. Damn is anyone confused more now? Today I was at the skeet field and came across some rio game loads, so I bought a couple boxes, I decided to take one apart and see what Rio was using. Well it looks very close to the RS-21. The factory rio wad measures very close to the measurements given by BP for the RS-21. If you read the BP details, it says that they(rio), even uses that wad in their shells. Bp shows to be out of stock now, but I am on the list when they do come in. Here is a picture of the factory Rio wad.

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    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  14. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    One other thing that I noticed about the Rio’s. I thought it would be a good idea to shoot a sxs with these reloads that had chokes instead of the stevens with full chokes as a final step to decide if the stevens will get chokes. I picked a 1947 LC Smith. When I dropped the Rio’s in the tubes, it would not close easily like normal. Removed and re inserted and finally got it to close, against my better judgment. Fired fine, went to break it open and it was a pita to open. First thought was reloads, so I tried a factory Rio, the old LC wouldn’t even close, not sure what the issue is, I done some measurements and couldn’t see much of a difference. I’m guessing it’s in the rim of the shell, which is really hard to measure accurately. The saving grace is the stevens likes the Rio’s, reloads and factory. Guess chokes are in order.
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
  15. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Interesting I have seen varied metal thickness before between brands of Eurotrash to point where if you deprime a tight margonini euro 209 the base metal can convex slightly but that doesn’t explain with new Rio. I actually measured metal base samples with ultrasonic thicknesser and there is suttle differences after they have been through dies between brands. The shoulder rim radius might be a clue too if that’s not shaped correctly. The blue rio hulls are noted as seeing this difference occasionally.
  16. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    whoa, what is a ultrasonic thicknesser? I think I need one of those. Yes it was the blue Rio, both reload and new factory. I tried to take some measurements with a mic but not accurate enough. I'm gonna dig out the old UMC (remington) brass hulls and see if the LC likes them. If so I will have to get a die set for 12 gauge brass. I tried RST, federal and Remington plastic hulls and everything is fine. I had a problem with remington reloads(gun clubs) cycling an auto 5 about 2 years ago, come to find that my resize ring on my mec was loose and moving downward a little at a time, next use I would resize and it would smash the rim flatter with each resize. It took about 6 reloads for the problem to show up. Super sizer was bought shortly after, problem fixed.
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
  17. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Yep lived that issue with a mec exact same thing. Also seen on old mec 600 where after tons of Eurotrash the resizing tube wears internally because of steel rims on hulls instead of brass. I use a 375c ponsness now days and really like what it puts out. The thickness tester is a precision lab type surface eco meter that measures steel and alloy plate for checking wear. Being a fellow tinkerer I will do a post on a neat mod where you can hot up your mec 650 to churn out more shells per hour.
  18. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    I need to look at the ponsness line of reloaders, I think win7stw also uses one. Do you have any gaep crimpers? Just wondering if they will mount up ok. It's kinda of a pita to mount them to a mec, and I have a bunch of them.
  19. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    PW 375 C is excellent little press with the upgrade dies.. Very robust H duty especially in comparison to newer Mec 600 with plastic crap pre crimper n bits .
    I find it slower than Mec but resizes and produces better quality load in my opinion with the C dies especially if your reloading for consistency , ultimate auto reliability and serious comp.
    Another thing about by design I like is can run it oil wet like a punch and shear set and it lends itself to working fine this environment and keeps everything well lubed non wearing and rust protected
    As a tinkerer you would like fact that you can change shot and powder bushes on the fly less than a minute when your experimenting and developing things. Other feature that is cool is you can load multiple gauges on the one press by quickly exchanging of the whole die head.
    As the last survivor of the once great reloading tribes I get a great selection of used presses around the place to pick and choose from at times before they become landfill . They are virtually worthless here. I have quite a graveyard
  20. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    I don’t have a gaep crimper. I am guessing it’s possibly almost exactly like the upgraded C dies with blade style pre crimper and rolls the shell in. The base moves towards dies on PW opposite action to Mec and most others. Can’t see any great challenge in adapting.
    Regardless your Mec loads are some of the best I have seen done. Most people 95% don’t understand their press and plain refuse to adjust to get anything close to the right result and then complain like hell. From what I see I would be quite confident arriving at a shoot off pad with your reloads in hand.
    Ranger6 likes this.

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