Problems with APS350

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Auzzie, Dec 5, 2021.

  1. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Calling Ranger and the knowledgeable. Having problems with getting consistency using APS 350 and after some others ideas or thoughts.
    Having played around with this a fair bit to get to this point I ended up settling on 19.5 g in Europe trash straight wall case with B&P h27 or guilandi wad and 13/16 oz shot and NSI primer which is slightly o size 209. I run these through a Rem comp synthetic 1100 and even though the gun goes bang and cycles fine and targets smash fine you get the odd inconsistent one which powder doesn’t ignite fully and properly dumps load of unburnt into action. You can feel when this happens it’s lighter on shoulder but target breaks as normal and gun cycles as normal and ejects but you know inside it was down on velocity and you don’t need doubt in comp situations.
  2. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    It’s weird the loads work just fine and reliable in a citori o/u not an issue but I am thinking the loads are right on that marginal point and the auto sucking off that little bit of gas off to work everything makes the difference as it can’t get to that right pressure to burn complete.
    What I am thinking of trying next is leaving at 19.5 g but lifting the shot charge up to 7/8 or 15/16 oz see if I can create that bit more resistance to pressure to get a more reliable burn without creating too much more recoil as have dodgey shoulder.
    Does this sound a logical step?
    Also going to get chronograph set up and to see just what variances are really happening.
    Had a ShotKam video on and could see when you feel or get a dodgey the un burnt grains rain out barrel and and excessive smoke in comparison to when one goes bang satisfactorily, yet target still breaks but you can bet by feel it’s probably slower and bit of luck involved as the barrel just happens to be in right place.
    Any thoughts.
  3. win7stw

    win7stw .30-06

    Grasping at straws here but i have a couple thoughts. One thing that could be happening is your hulls are different lengths. That can affect your crimps which as you know affects pressure. Might be a bad batch of primers. I’d try maybe a little more wad seating pressure
  4. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Aps350- looks to be the same as clays and red dot here in the US. I don't think you have enough payload for that powder. I understand the shoulder issue, win7stw could be on to something. Need a little more info, what are the crimp depths? Are you using any filler to get the stack height correct? I have read about some problems with the NSI primers. Do you have any other primers ? Have you candled one of these loads? I wouldn't expect any migration out of that wad, pay attention to the wad also, cocked wad etc. Not sure what euro hull you are using, but the base wad may be high allowing the wad to cock itself.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  5. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Ok all good stuff to digest. Will add bit more to the puzzle . What you call Clays is actually AS30 which is double base powder and was tried and proven no issues. Clays you guys get is from sister plant in Canada . Ran this forever same load as described before 30k + no issue totally reliable.
    The old powder plant burnt down and they rebuilt made a complete new production line switching to new single base manufacture calling it APS 350 and was supposed to be an improved drop in replacement and easier transport regulations.
    However mid last year factory had press release saying after 3 yrs they are having problems and can’t get reliability or drying right and have elected to completely discontinue sporting propellants.
    That doesn’t help any of us that have quantity and nothing else to use.
    Guess what saying is there is known problems with this stuff but it appears to work ok for some and issues for others. It is definitely not a user friendly drop in at all and obviously nowhere near as flexible as the old Clays.
  6. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Sounds like it could be the problem. I know I have run 16.o grains of clays in 12 ga and no problems for my old sxs. It leaves a little residue, but not as bad as the federal factory loads. If I remember correctly seems like one page, I found put APS30 and AS30 as the same, but doesn't seem the same from your experience. Hey just a quick question, do you guys have Black Powder over there? I've been playing with some. Seems to crush targets, if you can see through the smoke.
  7. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Hulls are cheddites, I have run win 209 as well as NSI. To get the stuff to work we are finding we have to go well above the published grains to get the actual FPS equivalent they state.. I reckon you might be onto something with crimp as stack height has dropped just slightly due to the powder density and dished bit more but was still keeping everything in.
    Possibly bit of packing bottom of shot cup might now be necessary to get the reliability.
  8. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Yeah we get German BP called Wano. Good stuff . Too expensive to use lots economically though but good for loading fun stuff
  9. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    After some out there thinking over a coffee I wonder if the gas volumetrics and energy required to drive and function the 1100 action is lot more in comparison to other gas guns. Gas chamber vs piston dia design. 1100s were designed and made in the day where loads with plenty of ummph were the normal thing and plenty of spare gas to drive things.
    If so this would explain why my Buddy’s A400 will work just fine and burn clean with my loads. Would also explain why my kids Citori will run the ammo without issue as it’s taking nothing away.

    Could well be the load is that right on marginal of working or not working reliably for burn and dragging and robbing off that bit more gas in the 1100 tips the scales to make it unreliable and not burn properly.
  10. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Win 7 your ideas sound good advice. I will look at hulls bit more closely for length and base cup. I did a sectional candle for a look and wads appear to be seated straight and in the right spot. Press wad fingers all good. There is no obvious mass powder migration evident but the APS is very fine grains compared to Clays.
    Being straightwall eurotrash hulls the Bashrini & Pellegrini h 27 are tightest wad fit in bore even better than a h 24 so that’s reason for that selection forever. Had good success and reliability with Guilandi and Clays but no joy or miracle cure trying with the APS 350.
    Very frustrating as you can go 200 then all of a sudden have one or two then go another 200. Real needle in a haystack problem. No odd sounding report noise either you just feel the recoil is different. What really sucks is how when it goes wrong all unburnt portion ends up in the trigger group jamming up the works. Then the doubt creeps into your head and messes up your game.
    Fastest way to wrecking good comp scores in skeet is a malfunctioning gun!!!
  11. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    It has been many moons since I had an 1100. One of the best auto’s I’ve ever had. Still kicking myself for trading it. I know there are guys that drill the gas ports to make them cycle certain loads, this could be one of those cases. I think a little tweaking and it would work just fine. It’s a lot for a 12 gauge to cycle 7/8 oz loads. My silver won’t cycle anything under 1290 fps.
    If the other two shooters have no issues with the same load, they are either really lucky or it’s your 1100.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  12. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Yeah mine has been awesome and never missed a beat. Love that gun and everything about it. It has functioned flawless on pipsqueek loads from day one in 2017 and it and I get on real well.
    Like John Moses they got that one right from day one.
    Actually fired first factory through it the other day after 15000 reloads to check things were working. Won’t risk abuse spruke too much about 1100”s on a browning website. ha
  13. Auzzie

    Auzzie 20g

    Update on all of this.
    Ended up trying few things. Firstly found some old AA compression formed cases stored for 40 yrs in the shed junk. Put a Remington target 12 (green figure 8 wad on board and lifted payload 1/16 more to 7/8 oz. Started with 18 Grn And 209 and was able to drop to 17.5 to get just perfect on 1200 and functioned gun reliable.

    Step 2 was then going back to the eurotrash straightwalls and from what was learned lifted the payload that same 1/16 and with a H27 wad and it made all the difference to getting the right burn and reliable. Had to go to 19.4 g in the straight wall to get the 1200 and same performance.
    The straight wall has less felt recoil in my opinion but the compression form case is economical powder wise which is pretty important in these times and matches performance.

    The weather certainly lot hotter by 12 deg so also think this has something to do with it in background also as the problematic initial loads are now suddenly working and functioning reliably.
    Obviously right on marginal but not reliable or trustable.
  14. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Very nice sir, and yes you gotta think outside the box especially right now. Nice to see you got it to work, and came back and posted the results. So thank you for that.
    What are you checking the speed with?

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