Another butt stock question.

Discussion in 'Browning Auto A-5' started by Bill Idaho, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. Bill Idaho

    Bill Idaho .270 WIN

    I am trying to rebuild a 1930 12 gauge. It has proven to be a labor of love. Just like a 1974 Ford Pinto, the deeper I dig into this thing, the more I find broke. (Pretty unusual for an A5 I must admit.) I pretty well finished the receiver/mag tube.
    I am now starting in on the wood, the butt stock in particular. (I have the correct forearm- in actually pretty good condition.) I have a handful of butt stocks, but none from the 30's. Today at a gun show, I found an early 30's, with a third generation butt plate.(!) I made sure I questioned the guy about being certain it was for a 12 and NOT a 16, which he assured me it was in fact off of a 12 gauge. The price was right, so I bought it. I got it home, and discovered it is not correct.

    It fits really good along the top tang, but the bottom tang is about 1/4" longer than the stock will allow. That also means the hole for the stock retaining screw is about 1/4" too far forward. I should say it appears the hole towards the top of the stock looks like it will line up, so technically the angle in which the hole in the wood is drilled is different. However, something still isn't right, as the inletting in the bottom of the stock needs to be moved back another 1/4" or so. ( I am rounding off this dimension, as I haven't taken a ruler to it yet.)

    The trigger group housing is numbered correctly to the receiver, nothing on the receiver or trigger group housing looks like it has been tweaked/bent/altered. At first I thought--for a fleeting moment-- I have a straight-stock receiver/trigger group housing, but those were phased out way before the 30's.

    I grabbed a 50, 51, 53 and a 54 (all 12s) out of one safe, and all of those appear to be the same length in regards to the bottom trigger group housing tang length, so as it seems, the butt stock I just bought would interchange with those, but not the 1930 I wanted it to fit. When I first tried to put that stock on the 30, when I saw the tang was too long, I initially thought that wood was for a 16. Not so, since it is the right length for the other four A5s I compared it to.

    The bible doesn't really mention internal dimensions of stock, merely LOP and drop at the heel. It says in 1938 there were some changes made to external dimensions. Was the tang length changed in the mix?

    A shame, as it is a good looking chunk of wood. What the heck am I going to do for a replacement?
  2. Biz

    Biz 20g

    Hello Bill,
    Would you have a pic of the stock showing well the checkering and a pic of the trigger group. The lettering on your buttplate is script writing style or block style?
  3. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Have one made would be the best, in my opinion anyway. Most of the stocks that old will either be cut short, beat up to bad or be oil soaked. You may have to buy a donor gun if you can find one in good shape. I got my grandfather’s 1936. It had the round knob on it. I tried to have it professionally saved, but it just cracked, due to being oil soaked for so long. Removing oil from one is not an easy task and often damages the wood even further. I ended up going with a new stock and forearm. It looks great. Not time period correct, however, it’s a shooter( best kind to me). I really don’t want one that I can’t use.
    I will have my 1909 16 restored by art, it will be time period correct, but it will have to have a stock made for it, art told me expect 2500.00. So unless you really wanna sink a lot of money into one, put a stock on it and shoot the shit out of it. Those birds don’t care what the wood looks like. If it’s not something special, you will never get your return on it. I like mine to look perfect also, but realized that the pretty ones don’t shoot any better and the first slip up and it’s damaged, will have to be refinished again.
    My old 12 mag has no blueing left and it scratched to hell. Shoots great and I don’t have to worry about that fence or knuckle head at the range that’s not paying attention, when he puts his gun in the rack next to mine.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  4. Bill Idaho

    Bill Idaho .270 WIN

    Posting pictures and me are not on speaking terms. (I know just enough about computers to get by with typing, much less posting pictures.)
    The checkering crosses underneath, so that tells me it is prior to 1963, and the external measurements indicate it is at least after 1938. According to the bible (The Shirley/Vanderlinden reference book) the butt plate is a third variation, according to page 125, top row of pictures and details.
    I saw a picture in the book where they are detailing the difference between the earlier and later checkering underneath, and the distance from the "X" where the checkering crosses underneath show about the same distance from that "X" to the rearward edge of the tang. Which again for some reason indicated the tang I have is longer.

    Again, I apologize for no pictures.
  5. Bill Idaho

    Bill Idaho .270 WIN

    And call Art's in the morning.
  6. Biz

    Biz 20g

    I believe your stock is from an American made Browning or if you prefer a Remington

    Left is a 1939 Belgian Browning and right is a 1913 Belgian Browning they are similar
    [​IMG]

    Left is a American Browning right is Belgian Browning
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
    ripjack13 likes this.
  7. Bill Idaho

    Bill Idaho .270 WIN

    I will double check. Thank you for your input. (I don't have an "American Browning", but know someone who has a couple.)
  8. Bill Idaho

    Bill Idaho .270 WIN

    Ok, upon further inspection, it is becoming apparent I did buy an actual standard Belgian 12 gauge (round knob) butt stock.

    Here is where it gets even more confusing. I compared the bottom tang of my 1930 "project" to several other early A5s. Lo and behold, it is my trigger group housing tang that is longer, not that the butt stock inletting was shorter. I also noticed the thickness of the tang where the screw goes through is thinner than the others I checked. Therefore, the difference is in my metal, NOT the wood. What do I have? Is there any chance I have some special straight-stock variant/special order? I wish Art's was open on Sundays. This is killin" me........................... The bible does mention special order stocks were available during that time frame, but makes no mention of the receiver being different regarding any special stock. Nor does it mention a straight grip being an option.

    (And, once again, after visiting the local gunshow today, a 1937 in REALLY good condition was appropriated and introduced to the other A5s at my house. They'll get along just fine. Some of them are starting to whine about the cramped living spaces, but I can fix that problem with another safe. )

    Anyway, the quest continues. (Sometimes it's not the destination, it's the journey.)
  9. Biz

    Biz 20g

    Is your trigger group/receiver assembly similar to this picture? If so, you have a English stock auto-5

    Here is trigger group/receiver assembly from a 1936 English stock
    [​IMG]
  10. Rudolph31

    Rudolph31 .30-06

    My guess is that you need a straight stock.
  11. Bill Idaho

    Bill Idaho .270 WIN

    That looks A LOT like what I have going on. The bottom tang on mine appears to have a very slight downward curve, but I can't tell based on that photo if the two tangs are parallel. Someone prior to me might have tried to bend the bottom tang down to fit it into a standard butt stock. There isn't much of a tweak, I can easily return it to its original configuration.
    So, let's play pretend.....................NOW where am I going to find a straight gripped stock?
    I don't see straight-gripped stocks offered anywhere.

    Can a round-grip or newer squared grip be cut down and altered ?
  12. Bill Idaho

    Bill Idaho .270 WIN

    "My guess is that you need a straight stock."---which, if true, would actually be pretty darn cool!!!!


    The way I rationalize things like this, is remembering something I have professed for decades----

    "I have wasted far more money, on far stupider things in my past."
    Ranger6 likes this.
  13. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    There is one on eBay right now for 250. Stock and forearm if your interested
  14. Bill Idaho

    Bill Idaho .270 WIN

    It appears I have just been lead into temptation.
    ripjack13 likes this.
  15. Biz

    Biz 20g


    A couple years ago I bought a set from Macon gunstock
  16. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Hey I was just putting it out there. The straight stock is not for everyone. Some people don’t like them. My 1909 has a straight stock and I have a special ordered gold in 20 gauge with a straight stock. Totally love it. Great bird gun in the bush. I even like it for skeet shooting. The straight stock is a different animal, so may take some getting use to.
    Not sure without some checking but you may be able to switch the trigger and put a regular stock on it.! If you do buy it and don’t like it, I might be interested in it. The straight stocks have a different pad on them. I have been looking for about a year for one for the 16. They are just not out there in good condition.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  17. Biz

    Biz 20g

    You’re right the straight stock is a different animal and I love it. I am restoring an old 3 inches magnum on which I will install a straight stock. It will be like going hunting geese with Goddess Diana.
  18. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    That will be sweet. I have a mag, but don’t shoot it much. It’s heavy like a tank. I don’t hunt geese anymore. I had a new Japan barrel on it with chokes, but made a deal with art for a sweet sixteen invector barrel. It’s more pleasant to carry and shoot.
  19. Rudolph31

    Rudolph31 .30-06

    There are a lot more Trigger Plates for straight stocks than there are stocks to go around. I’ve had one for years hoping to find the wood. But the holes into the top tang of the receiver are different for straight-stocked guns also.
  20. Bill Idaho

    Bill Idaho .270 WIN

    Update:
    I had an old Sile aftermarket walnut stock. I have had it for years, and actually don't remember where I got it. Anyway, the hole for the stock retaining screw was all wobbled out (for unknown reasons). It is typical Siles- no checkering, cheesy finish of some unknown type. Since I have time, I figured I would try to alter it into a straight-stock, and see what I could do with the wobbled out hole issue.
    (Remember, posting pictures and I are not on speaking terms,)
    I used a hand saw and cut off the pistol grip, leaving plenty to file and sand off once I get the inletting done. The top channel seemed to be pretty close, but the bottom channel was about 1/2" too short ( in length.) Using wood carving tools I inherited from my father, I carefully lengthened the bottom channel rearward, constantly checking clearances. Because of the way this particular stock fit, I realized once I got close to final fitting, this was NOT going to be anywhere near as fine a fit as any Browning would be. Be that is it may be...onward.......
    I ended up getting it pretty close. There are a couple of spots where I can see a space between wood and metal. I then had to deal with the wobbled out hole. The new hole is going to have to be real close to the existing hole. In fact as I started measuring things, the new hole was going to be a fresh start from the bottom, but actually end up going through the old wobbled out hole towards the top where the screw goes into the upper tang. No problem I figured, as technically, the the only thing the screw does keep the stock on, the shoulders of the stock where they touch the receiver are what probably takes the brunt of the recoil-not the screw. Therefore, I relieved the channels (both top and bottom) about 1/8" in depth, and removed a little bit more wood around the screw hole. I then smoked everything, and with an appropriate amount of the good JB weld epoxy (NOT the cheap stuff, they make a higher quality epoxy suitable for this), I literally bedded the stock to the receiver.

    Once it cures, I will drill the new hole, do my final sanding/preparation and finish it up with a yet-to-be-determined finish (probably a light application of Tru-oil), wanting to maintain something that looks "original" for that time frame. I don't want it to look "new", just good................... and right.
    Then the flowers will bloom and unicorns will run across fields of gold.



    And I will have a straight-stocked A5!!!!
    jlp likes this.

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