I had a chance to buy one of two Browning Black Label 380's. I picked what I though to be the best of the two based on slide to frame fit. The one I picked had some side to side movement, mostly at the front and a little up and down movement. The other Browning 380 had more slide to frame movement than I considered good for accuracy. I have considerable concern about this poor slide to frame fit. I ask any of you members, if you have a Browning Black Label 380, please do the following: with the gun unloaded and the slide in battery and a magazine inserted, cock the hammer. Then check the slide to frame fit by holding the grip with one hand and with the other hand wiggle the slide, first the front of the slide for side to side and up and down movement. Then check the rear of the slide to frame fit. Lastly, shake the pistol and see if it rattles. One of the gun reviews I read, the author noted the Browning 380 he tested rattled when shaken. Mine rattles, the slide moves side to side and up and down. Now after only (160) rounds fired through this pistol, the gun is even looser. Accuracy is not bad yet, but this is not headed in the right direction. I am trying to find out if this loose slide fit is a common problem or have I run into two of the worse fitted Browning 380's made. I will be checking with Browning about this condition but I would like to hear from you members first so I can report how these Browning 380's tend to be. I will note that I have six REAL 1911 pistols, all steel, and not a one of them has a slide to frame fit problem. None of them can rattle. Maybe this Browning Black Label 380 was never intended to be of the quality the all steel ones are. Sad that I had to spend more than a good Rock Island or Armscor 1911 would cost and get such a poor fitting pistol.
Mine's been a little loose since new. After 1,1100 rounds don't think it's getting any worse. Gun works fine. I wouldn't worry about it. I've got an Ed Brown Kobra Commander that's about the same and it cost a grunch more than the Black Label. OTOH, my Kimber 9mm is as tight as the day I bought it, but it's all stainless.
So... the question is: Can anything be done about "slide rattle"? Can I squeeze the slide rails in a vice? Can I tap down the receiver rails with a tap hammer? Or is the entire metal of the 1911 380 pot metal? I'm pretty happy with my 1911 380 so far, after a little sear polishing and tweaking of the barrel hood
I'd learn to live with it. Slide to frame fit doesn't have all that much affect on accuracy, anyway. Barrel-to-slide fit in lockup is more important. The next thing I'm going to have done to mine, if I can ever get it to feed reliably, will be to have someone mill a heavy, stainless-steel barrel bushing that's truly centered around the actual bore axis and has a nice, tight fit. The one that came with my Black Label is way too loose. If you absolutely have to _FIX_ the slide rattle, the best bet would be Accurails or something similar. A friend has an ancient Colt that used to be a real rattletrap. Had the Accurails installed and put a new match grade barrel in it and now it is as tight, smooth and accurate as his Wilson Classic and my match-grade Kimber. A lot more fun to shoot, too, for some reason.
I think a match profiled barrel with a swell at the muzzle would be required to optimize a match bushing. Agreed that the Browning bushing is a bit too loose. Below is what I have done to improve feeding without bothering with the magazines of which I have two (finally) now and neither has a dimension anywhere across the inside of the lips of less than .319" The 1st 100-150 rounds went about as I’d expect; a few failures to feed and once a burp of the last round out of the magazine onto the ground instead of chambering. I’m shooting handloads so I thought some of my cases may have been a little scarred up around the rim. After that though, I started getting stovepipes when I used LRN bullets. Always the 7th round would jam out of the 8 round mag with the nose stuck on the hood of the barrel but with the breech engaged with the cartridge base, as if normal and not overriding the side of the case. The round was being released early and tipped up too far to tilt over into the barrel from the shove of the breechface. This has to be a magazine issue, right? Finally, after 3 months, I managed to procure a 2nd magazine and was able to compare the dimensions of the 1st mag lips to those of the 2nd mag lips which seemed to be free of the failure to chamber problem (at first). I found little differences in the lips to speak of; .325 for one and .319 for the other across the narrowest point of measure. After a few magazines down range, the "new" mag would "stovepipe" at the 7th round on occasion too. Rather than assigning the problem solely to the magazines, I looked elsewhere (like Jerry Kuhnhausen and the internet) to find a likely source of the problem. There was not a lot of info regarding Browning 380s but there was much on the Browning design 1911 (as you may imagine) There I found the suggestion that the underside of the barrel hood if not radiused or edge broken may present a problem feeding RN bullets and that ALL 45ACP barrel hoods are chamfered there. Additionally, Kuhnhausen advised polishing the underside of the slide where the disconnector rides and the hammer is cocked and slides. The top round in the magazine also slides against this surface after ejection of the spent case. I found that my 1911 380 exhibited a lot of tool marks on this “lug” where the disconnector and hammer (and ultimately the top round in the magazine) ride. I found a triangular India stone to address this polishing task but a 300-400 grit sandpaper on an appropriate dowel would suffice to smooth this surface. Radiusing or breaking the underside edge of the barrel hood and polishing the under lug of the slide has, so far, (another 150 rounds of various 95g LRN, 88g JHP and 100g JRN rounds) seemed to ameliorate the “stovepipe” issue. I need to run another 3-400 rounds to satisfy my criteria for reliability but I am hopeful now that that can be achieved.
Interesting. I have Kuhnhausen, too, and I had noted the comments about the underside of the barrel hood. Mine had a nice chamfer out of the box so I didn't think much about it. But, looking at it again, the cut is at a pretty shallow angle and the edges are still quite sharp. I can't see any downside to putting a radius on them. Also, the cut at the inside angle of the chamfer (closest to the muzzle) isn't bad, but it still could be smoother. I have a stone for that. My "lug" where the disco rides (I don't know the proper term, either), was quite smooth out of the box, and got polished when one of the local gunbuilders did a trigger job on my Brownie. But, I wonder...if polishing that surface makes an appreciable difference....if maybe the recoil spring weight is marginally weak. Polishing the lug might allow the slide to pick up a little more velocity on the closing stroke...maybe enough to feed the fresh round down under the barrel hood and into the chamber before upward pressure from the following round forces it further up, over the edge of the hood and into the three-point jam. Maybe? Maybe the barrel hood is marginally short. I duuno, I'm guessing here. Anyway, thank you for your insight and reminders about Kuhnhausen. I'll definitely give the underside of the barrel hood some attention. The other thing I'm waiting to try is using a really light oil in the interest of minimizing things that might be slowing the slide stroke. Been using a 50/50 mix of Amsoil 5w-30 and Automatic Transmission Fluid, but I've got a small bottle of Wilson Combat "light" oil for the next range session. Will report results.
I'm guessing the tool marks on the underside of the slide drag on the upper side of the topmost round in the mag as soon as the spent round is ejected during recoil and that this is causing the mag round to tip up too far/too quickly to enter the chamber. This based on the attitude of my stovepiped round when the jam occurs. The very square bottom edge of the hood puts a crease on the LRN bullet that is not going to lean over and chamber regardless of slide return velocity. Slide recoil velocity along with these tool marks may exacerbate cartridge tip up but I'm not running the LRN nearly as fast as JRN or JHPs. I only put about an .02"break on the barrel hood to prove the concept and that could easily be increased to .04-.06" were that necessary.
I just rounded the corners (careful guys...only needs a few light strokes with an oiled India stone), then polished the inside of the hood and out to the rear surface with a 3M gray finishing pad until every felt smooth and creamy. I'll try and get it out in the morning, but right now my boss says otherwise. The weekend is lost to an out of town wedding so if I don't get it tomorrow I'll have to wait until sometime next week.
I have fired over 700 rounds through my Black Label. I did have to squeeze the lips of my magazines down to .316" to .319" to prevent the stove pipe jams. I have done nothing else with the pistol and it is running fine now. I have some lead round nose loads that perform well and a bunch that don't show much in the way of accuracy. The same goes for plated bullets and jacketed bullets. My Black Label 380 is accurate with Winchester and American Eagle factory ammo. I have had the best luck with my reloads using Accurate No. 2 powder and CCI 500 or Winchester Small Pistol primers. This combination is clean burning and usually most accurate at the upper end of the powder charge range. I have tried slower powders like Unique and Accurate No. 5, but the faster powder works best in my gun.
Quick report: After polishing as reported above, thoroughly cleaning and re-oiling with the Wilson Combat Light oil (looks, smells, tastes and is about the same consistency as Rem Oil) hit the range on the way to work. Fired three cycles with four magazines (96 rounds total). Only one stove pipe (and on that one the unfired cartridge almost made it completely out of the ejection port) and no other operational problems. Don't know if it was the smoothing and polishing, the light oil, or a conjunction of minor planets, but my little Brownie has never worked this well before. We'll see what happens when the spousal unit gets a hold of it.
...waaay back when I first was taught & then qualified with the Govt Model aboard Marine Corps Base Quantico, the GySgt said to us: "If it rattles, it's good." Can't comment other than every single one of our issue pistols rattled and most of us qualified Expert.
(We're still talking about the 1911 380, right?) I went back to the club to verify my polish theory a few times and had good luck for the last couple of weeks with reliability but today the 7th rnd tip-up manifested itself pretty positively today. My two new, un-modified magazines jammed my LRN Missouri bullets into the barrel hood more often than not on the 7th round out of the magazine. Am I loading the LRN too short at .955"? The Lyman cast bullet handbook suggests .980". Might the longer length delay "tip-up" enough to provide reliable function? What length or bullet profile does Browning use for reliability testing? The Browning magazine might accept a cartridge up to 1.00" with some bullet shapes from the look of it. The breech showed some build up of dirt along the bottom edge. Is that retarding/affecting the loading of a new round?
I don't know...this happens often enough and to enough people to make me think the problem isn't ammo related. Inertial feeds, if that's what is happening, can be caused by a number of things, including weak mag springs or mag feed lip geometry. Wolff (gunsprings.com) was kind enough to send me a generic .380 mag spring to test in my Black Label. I had to trim it to match the configuration of the stock mag (16 turns) and, of course, it didn't have the loop that goes through the follower to activate the slide stop when the mag is empty, but other than that it ran flawlessly through six cycles (48 rounds) where that particular mag had always been a problem child. I note the Wolff mag spring is made from wire that is about one gauge larger than the Browning mag spring, and when trimmed to the same number of turns the Wolff spring was noticeably "stiffer". If you are so inclined, please drop a line to support@gunsprings.com and ask nicely if they are considering offering replacement magazine and recoil springs for the Black Label .380. I use Wolff springs in all my other handguns and can recommend them without reservation. My last purchase was mag springs for my S&W Shield 9 which I had to buy because my Brownie simply isn't reliable enough to be a carry weapon.
"gunsprings" being the supplier for Browning 1911 380 magazines or springs? Based on my observations, the remaining spring force on the last couple of rounds suggests a possible issue.
Wolff is a third-party supplier of various springs for a very large number of different handguns. They're pretty much the go-to supplier of non-standard weight recoil springs and mainsprings for the 1911 platform, as well as replacement/alternate springs for a wide variety of magazines. I'm not sure if they are the springs OEM for any manufacturer. Their website/online business is www.gunsprings.com. The e-mail address to inquire about products is support@gunsprings.com. Apologies for not being clearer before. It is late and the martinis are strong this day.
I measured the Browning magazine spring at about .033"dia. As long as I was at it, I measured the spring on a Bersa Thunder magazine and my Colt Mustang magazine. The Bersa measures about .038" and the Mustang at .040". The Bersa magazine is practically the same length as the Browning and the spring has the same number of coils but because of the follower, holds only 7 rnds. The Mustang is a different animal with only 10 coils and capacity of 6 rnds. I have an additional mag for the Bersa made by Pro Mag that has never worked right; It feeds correctly now but has never been reliable at tripping the slide stop when empty. The spring wire diameter on that one is .034". I'll look into the Wolff magazine springs. If they are music wire, the end could be annealed by heating to red hot and allowing to air cool. At that point you should be able to bend the end to the approximate shape of Browning spring. You should be able to use it in that condition or you could re-heat and quench in water to obtain a brittle hard condition. Ultimately it would be nice if Browning would address the issue.
Made it to the club today and shot the Mustang and the Browning. I exchanged the Bersa magazine spring (.038" dia) for the Browning (.034") and shot that spring in the Browning magazine through both pistols. Yes, I had to modify the magazine catch on the Browning magazine ( open it to the rear) a little to make it work in the Mustang but I'm satisfied that the mod allows the Browning mag to service both the 1911 380 and the Mustang now. The Mustang functions with either Browning supplied or Bersa spring in the modified Browning magazine. The 1911 380 continues to stovepipe the 7th round using the OEM spring while it handles the Bersa spring magazine by feeding all I can place in the magazine. I can put 8 round in the magazine with the Bersa spring but I can't seat that magazine in the 1911 380 with the slide closed on a loaded round, so I'm sacrificing one round capacity and with the magazine cutoff, possibly a critical SD shutdown so for the time being, as configured, the magazine would be a 7 rounder. Of course, the Bersa spring provides no slide stop or magazine floor catch. I have an order into Wolff for their .32/380 magazine springs to see what I can do with them. I think rbmorse may be onto something.
